That being said, this past week I've gotten back into emailing and texting with others that wish I would go back to church. See part 1 to understand this post better. This has caused me to get back into history in order to explain my stance (again). I told both of these people that their hope for our return to church was in vain because I would have to teach my children that Joseph Smith was a liar and he lied to his wife, his children, his brethren, and indeed a whole church and he didn't lie once, he did it constantly and I'd have to teach them that all that was okay. Both their responses: "Abraham lied."
LOOOOOOORD! LORD!!!!! Lord help me.
But they sent me quotes and things to consider as to why the Church is true and will always be true and so I got back into history to dig and find out what was actually said and how they meant it. Thanks to other bloggers and as always, my husband's insights, I sent this letter below as one of the responses (with the other person we texted and called a truce. We've been this road countless times before but we are very passionate people so we always get swept back up into discussion, then truce. A discussion, then truce. It's comical.).
Hi (Edit),
When I read the scanned document you sent I couldn't find anywhere where Joseph said to refrain from accusing the brethren. Could you underline it for me? I read it about five times but couldn't see it.
I am still struggling to understand how, if Willard Richards wasn't in America, could he have recorded what Joseph said. But I'll come your way and consider that Joseph did say it. Then I ask myself - does this quote match God's eternal pattern? For example, scripture is filled with prophets, called by God, who did indeed "rise up to condemn others, finding fault with the church, saying they are out of the way." Some examples are:
Noah
Abraham
Moses
Amos
Hosea
Isaiah
Ezekiel
Micah
Jeremiah
Lehi
Jacob
Benjamin
Abinadi
Alma the Younger
Samuel the Lamanite
John the Baptist
Jesus Christ
Joseph Smith
Why would Joseph say that, "It is an eternal principle, that has existed with God from all eternity" and then have the scriptures replete with examples which contradict that exact statement? In my understanding - the mission of any true prophet is telling people who have gone astray that they are out of the way and calling them to repentance (D&C 11:9). President Benson did that in his April 1986 General Conference Talk (link).
I have observed that in our day and age "the Church" has come to mean the organizational structure at Church headquarters in Salt Lake City, the institutional, corporate Church, and primarily its leaders. But when Joseph referenced "the church" he meant just the opposite. He was talking about the rank and file members. Joseph's definition of the church was the same as the definition given by the Lord in D&C 10:67: all who repent and come unto Christ, "the same is my church."
“I will give you one of the Keys of the mysteries of the Kingdom. It is an eternal principle, that has existed with God from all eternity: That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives.”
Whatever it was that caused Willard Richards to record that quote when he wasn't present for that meeting - I do not know. I have always thought apostasy was turning your back on Christ, abandoning religious faith, denouncing the gospel. "Losing confidence in the leaders" seems to be the polar opposite of what Nephi warned us about 34 O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm. (2 Nephi 4)
As I see it - members in the church today are instructed to center their focus on the leaders. "You keep your eyes riveted on the prophet and the Twelve apostles. We will not lead you astray. We cannot. So keep your eyes riveted on the leadership of the Church." (Elder Ballard speaking at BYU, 1996) If I am critical and on the high road to apostasy for saying I believe Elder Ballard was incorrect in that statement and it doesn't match scripture - I will accept that accusation of me. I believe they are men who can and do make mistakes, and that's okay! I can and do make mistakes daily. I tell my children to let me know where I'm wrong and if I've said something hypocritical or inconsistent - and boy they do let me know. And I always thank them and tell them to keep it coming because I'm trying to be the best parent I can be. I believe the leaders tell us they are fallible and so I choose to keep my eye on He who is infallible and I hope that's enough for Him.
I know you feel I am being critical when I make observations and say that doesn't match scripture (as I understand scripture). But to me...that isn't being critical - it is thinking critically (which can feel threatening I think). I don't mind when you tell me you don't agree with Trump. It's when you attack him personally (and I would feel that way if you did that for anyone) that I get uncomfortable. I say - think critically about what Trump is doing! And let me know the red flags you see. That is good conversation and helps me learn about policies and the constitution and look out for Gadianton robbers. But saying he's evil (not that you said that but just an example) does nothing to further my learning. I feel it is a good thing to look at the church and ask questions and see if the church today aligns with the scriptures. I believe the Book of Mormon encourages us to do this. 2 Nephi 28 warns of us following flesh:
9 Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines, and shall be puffed up in their hearts, and shall seek deep to hide their counsels from the Lord; and their works shall be in the dark.
10 And the blood of the saints shall cry from the ground against them.
11 Yea, they have all gone out of the way; they have become corrupted.
12 Because of pride, and because of false teachers, and false doctrine, their churches have become corrupted, and their churches are lifted up; because of pride they are puffed up.
13 They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing; and they persecute the meek and the poor in heart, because in their pride they are puffed up.
14 They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.
Matt.15: 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
D&C 93: 39 And that wicked one cometh and taketh away light and truth, through disobedience, from the children of men, and because of the tradition of their fathers.
As I see it - members in the church today are instructed to center their focus on the leaders. "You keep your eyes riveted on the prophet and the Twelve apostles. We will not lead you astray. We cannot. So keep your eyes riveted on the leadership of the Church." (Elder Ballard speaking at BYU, 1996) If I am critical and on the high road to apostasy for saying I believe Elder Ballard was incorrect in that statement and it doesn't match scripture - I will accept that accusation of me. I believe they are men who can and do make mistakes, and that's okay! I can and do make mistakes daily. I tell my children to let me know where I'm wrong and if I've said something hypocritical or inconsistent - and boy they do let me know. And I always thank them and tell them to keep it coming because I'm trying to be the best parent I can be. I believe the leaders tell us they are fallible and so I choose to keep my eye on He who is infallible and I hope that's enough for Him.
I know you feel I am being critical when I make observations and say that doesn't match scripture (as I understand scripture). But to me...that isn't being critical - it is thinking critically (which can feel threatening I think). I don't mind when you tell me you don't agree with Trump. It's when you attack him personally (and I would feel that way if you did that for anyone) that I get uncomfortable. I say - think critically about what Trump is doing! And let me know the red flags you see. That is good conversation and helps me learn about policies and the constitution and look out for Gadianton robbers. But saying he's evil (not that you said that but just an example) does nothing to further my learning. I feel it is a good thing to look at the church and ask questions and see if the church today aligns with the scriptures. I believe the Book of Mormon encourages us to do this. 2 Nephi 28 warns of us following flesh:
9 Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines, and shall be puffed up in their hearts, and shall seek deep to hide their counsels from the Lord; and their works shall be in the dark.
10 And the blood of the saints shall cry from the ground against them.
11 Yea, they have all gone out of the way; they have become corrupted.
12 Because of pride, and because of false teachers, and false doctrine, their churches have become corrupted, and their churches are lifted up; because of pride they are puffed up.
13 They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing; and they persecute the meek and the poor in heart, because in their pride they are puffed up.
14 They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.
Matt.15: 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
D&C 93: 39 And that wicked one cometh and taketh away light and truth, through disobedience, from the children of men, and because of the tradition of their fathers.
I am not saying I am in the right way. I am saying that one person is lying (either Joseph or Brigham) and I say it was Brigham that lied and you say that it was Joseph. So we have to set that aside and see what we can prove to be true.
What is true? We both believe the Book of Mormon and Joseph said: “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.” So as long as I do just what the Book of Mormon says, I hope to be in the right way.
I wanted to ask you: Could you define what the Standard of Truth that has been erected is?
From the quote you scanned:
Matthew 13: 31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.
"Now we can discover plainly that this figure is given to represent the Church as it shall come forth in the last days. … Let us take the Book of Mormon, which a man took and hid in his field, securing it by his faith, to spring up in the last days, or in due time; let us behold it coming forth out of the ground, which is indeed accounted the least of all seeds, but behold it branching forth, yea, even towering, with lofty branches, and God-like majesty, until it, like the mustard seed, becomes the greatest of all herbs. And it is truth, and it has sprouted and come forth out of the earth, and righteousness begins to look down from heaven, and God is sending down His powers, gifts and angels, to lodge in the branches thereof."
Joseph says the parable plainly represents the church and then says what he means by that: He says the Kingdom of Heaven is the same as: The Book of Mormon. This Book of Mormon will spring up in the last days until it is the greatest of all herbs.
Love,
Ruth
What is true? We both believe the Book of Mormon and Joseph said: “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.” So as long as I do just what the Book of Mormon says, I hope to be in the right way.
I wanted to ask you: Could you define what the Standard of Truth that has been erected is?
From the quote you scanned:
Matthew 13: 31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.
"Now we can discover plainly that this figure is given to represent the Church as it shall come forth in the last days. … Let us take the Book of Mormon, which a man took and hid in his field, securing it by his faith, to spring up in the last days, or in due time; let us behold it coming forth out of the ground, which is indeed accounted the least of all seeds, but behold it branching forth, yea, even towering, with lofty branches, and God-like majesty, until it, like the mustard seed, becomes the greatest of all herbs. And it is truth, and it has sprouted and come forth out of the earth, and righteousness begins to look down from heaven, and God is sending down His powers, gifts and angels, to lodge in the branches thereof."
Joseph says the parable plainly represents the church and then says what he means by that: He says the Kingdom of Heaven is the same as: The Book of Mormon. This Book of Mormon will spring up in the last days until it is the greatest of all herbs.
Love,
Ruth
To conclude I will say that if you don't know me by now - I am prone to burst of fire. I detest this about myself when it flares up. Often I take this fire to the Lord and have found He is big enough to handle it. But my prayer the last 10 or so years has been, and please forgive me if this offends you but I try to be transparent here, my prayer concerning the church has gone like this:
LORD! The Church is filled with lies! Awaken Your people! EXPOSE this corruption! Shine a light on all this darkness and bring these hidden things forth!!!
This week after digging into history and remembering all the evils that have been done...my prayer lead to this:
LORD!! Burn it all DOWN. It is ALL corrupt! It is ALL out of the way. Burn it, expose it - let it be consumed!
When I prayed this I could feel the Lord wasn't aligning with me on this request. I waited...still no feeling of alignment. So I repeated again (I thought maybe He wasn't seeing the logic) and added, "You'll find a way to help your children that will be left reeling by this. You can do it. Burn it down and Your children will be okay. They will find You. Right?"
Heavenly displeasure settled upon me. I sat there for some time wondering what I had said wrong. I had the thought to read my scriptures so I grabbed them and opened up Luke 9, and it was as though the Lord put a heavenly magnifying glass and hovered it over these words:
"And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?.....but He turned and rebuked them, and said, Ruth - you know not what manner of Spirit you are of....For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them."
A heavenly earthquake shook my soul. Forgive me Lord. Cast this spirit far from me. How can I help Your people to find You? Teach me what to pray for, Lord.
"Pray for the Lord of the Harvest to send forth laborers into the harvest."
"Yes Lord!" And then I pray. And then I pick my scriptures back up and read Luke chapter 10 and it says that exact scripture.
2 Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.
Thanks to Tim who pointed that prayer out some time ago (if you can link that post below when you read this post). The Lord knows I learn through repetition.
Prayer:
Lord, please send more laborers into Your Harvest. Touch those who have Awoken...to Arise. Breathe on us Your Breath of Life, Lord. Cause a famine to arise in the land, Lord. A famine for Your Word and Your Truth. Cause a hunger to pain these, Your people. A Hunger for Your Bread which is meat indeed and Your Blood which is drink indeed. Fill us with Your Spirit Lord, and cause us to reject all other spirits that would fill us and distract us from Laboring to bring in the Harvest. Fill us with You with Your good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over. You said that if a child asks their father for bread they will not be given a stone. And we, being evil, come and ask You for Your Bread and You for Your drink. Lord please - FILL US and KEEP US and send more of us that we may be able to stand at the crossroads for those coming up behind that we may illuminate the path and point the way back to You. Let us always speak of You and let no other name or idol fill our hearts. All that is not of You is dross and good for nothing but to be cast out and trampled. We need more of You Lord. Give us this day our daily Bread. Forgive us. We forgive our debtors, all of them. ALL! Thank You for forgiving our debts. Now let your Servants come along side You, shod with the gospel of Peace - let us work while it is day before it is night when no man can work. We offer ourselves to You.
In Your name Jesus. Amen.
This song below is SO BEAUTIFUL. Thank you to UB who sent it to me. Don't let the harp and homely background fool you. This song is WONDERFUL.
All I Want Is Jesus
by
Megan Tibbits
I love the “coincidence” here Ruth.
ReplyDeleteWhen I began this journey, my wife was very concerned. After I told her, “I don’t want to burn it down, I want to help make corrections,” she felt better and supported me. Which also in turn helped her to be open to see errors occurring.
Throughout scripture prophets were constantly called to correct the church. After correction they would eventually fall and be ripe for destruction. Individuals and small groups would stand out of the crowd and be received by God. The BofM was written for us, our day. We trust it or we don’t, it becomes clearer the more I admit my errors and sins. It’s not warning those that don’t read it. It’s not warning those that have no sin. “And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord; (D&C 112:25). Do we (LDS) not claim to be his house, the holy church of God? Yes or no?
You cannot pollute or transfigure that which doesn’t not exist.
“Why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why have ye transfigured the holy word of God.”
(Mormon 8). God always allows correction and repentance, but we have to admit it is talking to us, those that read the book.
Read
2 Nephi 9:39-54
39 O, my beloved brethren, remember the awfulness in transgressing against that Holy God, and also the awfulness of yielding to the enticings of that cunning one. Remember, to be carnally-minded is death, and to be spiritually-minded is life eternal.
40 O, my beloved brethren, give ear to my words. Remember the greatness of the Holy One of Israel. Do not say that I have spoken hard things against you; for if ye do, ye will revile against the truth; for I have spoken the words of your Maker. I know that the words of truth are hard against all uncleanness; but the righteous fear them not, for they love the truth and are not shaken.
41 O then, my beloved brethren, come unto the Lord, the Holy One. Remember that his paths are righteous. Behold, the way for man is narrow, but it lieth in a straight course before him, and the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel; and he employeth no servant there; and there is none other way save it be by the gate; for he cannot be deceived, for the Lord God is his name.
42 And whoso knocketh, to him will he open; and the wise, and the learned, and they that are rich, who are puffed up because of their learning, and their wisdom, and their riches—yea, they are they whom he despiseth; and save they shall cast these things away, and consider themselves fools before God, and come down in the depths of humility, he will not open unto them.
43 But the things of the wise and the prudent shall be hid from them forever—yea, that happiness which is prepared for the saints.
1/2
2/2
ReplyDelete44 O, my beloved brethren, remember my words. Behold, I take off my garments, and I shake them before you; I pray the God of my salvation that he view me with his all-searching eye; wherefore, ye shall know at the last day, when all men shall be judged of their works, that the God of Israel did witness that I shook your iniquities from my soul, and that I stand with brightness before him, and am rid of your blood.
45 O, my beloved brethren, turn away from your sins; shake off the chains of him that would bind you fast; come unto that God who is the rock of your salvation.
46 Prepare your souls for that glorious day when justice shall be administered unto the righteous, even the day of judgment, that ye may not shrink with awful fear; that ye may not remember your awful guilt in perfectness, and be constrained to exclaim: Holy, holy are thy judgments, O Lord God Almighty—but I know my guilt; I transgressed thy law, and my transgressions are mine; and the devil hath obtained me, that I am a prey to his awful misery.
47 But behold, my brethren, is it expedient that I should awake you to an awful reality of these things? Would I harrow up your souls if your minds were pure? Would I be plain unto you according to the plainness of the truth if ye were freed from sin?
48 Behold, if ye were holy I would speak unto you of holiness; but as ye are not holy, and ye look upon me as a teacher, it must needs be expedient that I teach you the consequences of sin.
49 Behold, my soul abhorreth sin, and my heart delighteth in righteousness; and I will praise the holy name of my God.
50 Come, my brethren, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters; and he that hath no money, come buy and eat; yea, come buy wine and milk without money and without price.
51 Wherefore, do not spend money for that which is of no worth, nor your labor for that which cannot satisfy. Hearken diligently unto me, and remember the words which I have spoken; and come unto the Holy One of Israel, and feast upon that which perisheth not, neither can be corrupted, and let your soul delight in fatness.
52 Behold, my beloved brethren, remember the words of your God; pray unto him continually by day, and give thanks unto his holy name by night. Let your hearts rejoice.
53 And behold how great the covenants of the Lord, and how great his condescensions unto the children of men; and because of his greatness, and his grace and mercy, he has promised unto us that our seed shall not utterly be destroyed, according to the flesh, but that he would preserve them; and in future generations they shall become a righteous branch unto the house of Israel.
54 And now, my brethren, I would speak unto you more; but on the morrow I will declare unto you the remainder of my words. Amen.
Beautiful post, Ruth; I cannot think of another blogger who writes with such vulnerability, warts-and-all, who admits so freely to stumbling towards the truth, as you do. It's one of the reasons your posts are so relatable -- for who hasn't experienced these moments where the Lord turns us around and we find ourselves doing a spiritual 180? I love how the Lord replaced your righteous zeal with compassion; I felt the Spirit of Christlike love in your prayer, and in it, your devotion and discipleship. Thank you! Tim
ReplyDeleteP.S. The post you asked about, the one where we discussed LGBT issues in the comments, and laborers in the vineyard, was "A Faith Beyond, Part 10" at https://www.owlofthedesert.com/blog/a-faith-beyond-understanding-the-gospels-least-understood-principle-part-10
Sounds like you haven't heard the constant focus on the Savior message that others see and hear. Can you send quotes (not 1996 out of context quote)?
ReplyDeleteI couldn't find your quote in the BYU 1996 talk but I found this - opposite of what you claim:
"Next, President Ezra Taft Benson explained that “the sacred mission of the Church … [is] to ‘invite all to come unto Christ’ (D&C 20:59)” (“‘Come unto Christ, and Be Perfected in Him,’” Ensign, May 1988, 84; see also Moro. 10:32). In that light, the law of sacrifice has always been a means for God’s children to come unto the Lord Jesus Christ. How does sacrifice help us come unto Christ? No one will ever accept the Savior without having faith in Him first. Hence, the first principle of the gospel is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Accordingly, the Prophet Joseph Smith explained an important relationship between the principle of faith and the principle of sacrifice: “Let us here observe, that a religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation; … it is through the medium of the sacrifice of all earthly things that men do actually know that they are doing the things that are well pleasing in the sight of God. When a man has offered in sacrifice all that he has for the truth’s sake, not even withholding his life, and believing before God that he has been called to make this sacrifice because he seeks to do his will, he does know, most assuredly, that God does and will accept his sacrifice and offering, and that he has not, nor will not seek his face in vain. Under these circumstances, then, he can obtain the faith necessary for him to lay hold on eternal life” (Lectures on Faith [1985], 69).
The "church" has several meanings: Some use it as you feel it is used today
Why do you spend your precious time on tearing down rather than building up others and showing a better church, plan, or other? Feels hypocritical of all your words are so focussed on what you percieve to be wrong when you seem to want others to focus on Jesus.
Why not show others a better way if you have one. To me it feels like you are trying to convince yourself (and others) of the imperfections of others and the church....
I do hear the leadership of the church speak of Christ in this way: They talk of Christ by pointing members to the Temple and the "Covenant Path". Because Christ is mentioned in conjunction with the Temple it feels like the goal is Jesus, but it isn't. The end goal of the Covenant Path is: the Temple. The Book of Mormon teaches us to follow the Doctrine of Christ. The end goal of the Doctrine of Christ is: Jesus (2 Nephi 31). Just talking about Jesus isn't enough if the road doesn't lead you to Him. Jesus taught us this when He said, "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
DeleteI didn't feel that the 1996 quote from Elder Ballard was out of context but for the sake of the request here is one from Elder Rasband in October 2024 (I literally just chose Elder Rasband at Random and clicked on the first talk I saw). Here he twists scripture and turns Jesus' message that HE is the Light which we shall hold up and says that we hold up "the Lord's light" (this is NOT the same thing that Jesus said which was "I am the light which ye shall hold up") Elder Rasband says that when we support the living prophet and uphold their prophetic priorities... THAT is "the light which ye shall hold up".
Elder Rasband: "To the Nephites, Jesus said: “Hold up your light that it may shine unto the world. Behold I am the light which ye shall hold up.” We hold up the Lord’s light when we hold fast to our covenants and when we support our living prophet as he speaks the words of God. President Russell M. Nelson said, when serving in the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, “Our sustaining of prophets is a personal commitment that we will do our utmost to uphold their prophetic priorities.”
You mentioned you couldn't find the BYU 1996 quote. Here is the link: https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/m-russell-ballard/shall-things/#
The quote you gave from President Benson and Joseph Smith's lectures on Faith is spot on. Great find.
You asked why do I spend my precious time on tearing down rather than building up others and showing a better church, plan, or other? If you read every post I have ever written along with reading all links provided various posts and watching all videos I have posted - then that is a fair question to ask. The short answer is that I write because the church has demonstrably false teachings that lead the members away from Jesus. I know at least 20 loved ones that left the church and left God. This upsets me deeply. So I write. I write because I don't want to see this keep happening. The church has lied and continues to perpetuate lies and people are waking up to it every day and looking for answers. In my writings I hope to validate what they see and point them to Jesus. When I woke up to the lies - someone did this for me and it saved me when I thought all was lost. I want to return the favor. But to an outsider who loves the leadership of the church this blog will be of zero value. I encourage you not to read it as it will cause frustration.
You said: "Why not show others a better way if you have one. To me it feels like you are trying to convince yourself (and others) of the imperfections of others and the church...." The "better way" I have to offer is in almost every post I have written. Again, you'd have to take the time to read them all. You have judged me as someone who wastes my time, is critical and spends their time tearing down others without offering anything in return. I'm sorry that's your perception of me. I don't know you (or maybe we do know each other as these criticisms sound familiar) but I can see you care deeply and I sincerely wish you the best.